If you've always wanted to know what keeps the leaders of Big Law up at night, you've come to the right place. We interviewed the senior leadership of some of the biggest law firms in the world and this is what they told us...
ICYMI: Every year, we fortunate people at Chambers Associate get the absolute pleasure of having a one-to-one conversation with the senior leadership of some of the biggest law firms in the country – and the world. Here’s last year’s article in case you’re curious about what a managing partner’s favorite legal drama is (spoiler alert: you should be).
Largely, we conduct these interviews to get a sense of the firm’s market position, commercial strategy, and targeted areas of growth straight from the source to feed back to our readers. The other (far less serious) part of this process is to prove that these senior members of the firm are not nearly as scary as you think they would be. In fact, they’re really not scary at all – they’re indisputably hilarious and always happy to indulge our silly lines of questioning!
To prove it, we ask them your burning questions – rather, our burning questions – to get to know them a little bit better. So, if you’ve ever wondered what a managing partner’s first car was, or which actor/actress they’d get to play them in a biopic, read on!
Perception & Differentiation
Before that, let’s go through the serious stuff we learned. The first question we ask managing partners when we sit down with them is: “How would you define your firm’s current position and identity in the legal market? What differentiates your firm from your peer firms in the market?” Our interviewees usually rattle off a couple of different points, but interestingly enough, many of them mentioned the same things. Check out this graph:
Location & Client Service
As you can see, managing partners feel that their location and their client-focused approach set them apart from their peers in the market. Take Herb Washer, chairperson at Cahill, and his response as an example of why it’s all about location, location, location:
“I would say that we are quite New York centric. I think there has been a trend in the law to really build out these global law firms that have practices in every jurisdiction and cover every substantive area of law; our model is a bit different and a bit more focused.
Our goal is to be ‘best in class’ in specific areas in London, New York, and Washington DC, but we’re really not focused on other locations.”
That emphasis on a particular location demonstrates a clear focal point for four-office firm Cahill and firms like it. There is no desire to grow too big too fast – nor grow for the sake of growing. It bodes well for potential associates or laterals to join a firm that is cognizant of exactly where it’s positioned in the market.
Location often ties into conversations about client service. All firms are client focused by nature, but this is something managing partners like Freshfields partner Andrea Basham really hammered home in our interviews:
“The firm made a strategic decision many years ago that—although it was already a powerhouse in Europe and Asia—it was necessary to build a premier, market-leading US practice in order to serve clients at the highest level on a global basis.
Freshfields US […] is a destination practice for all the large clients you would expect — not only in the US but globally.”
Location and client service are the top 2 differentiators, but these are followed closely by the strength of the firm’s practice groups, their reputation/prestige, and the culture. These being the top 5 differentiators signal that this is something that aspiring associates should be looking for when making their choice between firms.
Practice Areas
Practice group strength in particular is always a hot topic, especially when there are so many full-service firms out there. If there’s an area where the firm shines, its leaders are always keen to spotlight it, as Cooley’s CEO, Rachel Proffitt, does:
“We’ve been at the center of the technology ecosystem for over 50 years; it’s part of our DNA. We are fortunate to sit at the intersection of innovation and disruption and work with startups and global companies that are innovators and disrupters themselves.
We work across the entire corporate life cycle whether it's a start up going through fundraising rounds, through to an IPO or M&A exit, and any bet-the-company litigation.
As a result, we are unparalleled both in the nature of our work and the breadth of our client base, with over 12,000 clients, an order of magnitude that is greater than most.”
This is helpful for recruiters too: where the firm thinks it excels in the market may not always be congruent to the market players’ perception of the firm’s work in that practice. It is also helpful to know as a recruiter when placing laterals where the firm is looking to grow its practices – especially when you’re hearing that information straight from the horse’s mouth. Naturally, this is often market-dependent, but firms will also have their own specific practices that they’re looking to build out. Vincent Cohen Jr., global managing partner at Dechert, explains:
“[W]e focused on implementing our strategic plan, which included accelerated, focused growth, increasing our brand profile and profitability and remaining a market leader […]
We focused on our steeples of excellence, which included complex commercial litigation, enforcement actions and investigations, and PLMT litigation […] Antitrust and competition matters, investment management, financing and restructuring, capital markets and securitization, mergers and acquisitions, and intellectual property – those are the steeples of excellence we are focused on.”
Reputation & Prestige
While reputation and prestige aren’t everything, they certainly are something. This means that despite general attitudes among associates shifting to place more of an emphasis on how a firm makes them feel, nationwide perception and standing do still matter to the firm (a point that is only reinforced by our sister guide Chambers USA). King & Spalding partner Justin King sums this up nicely:
“We’re among the elite law firms. Today, we have 1,400 lawyers and 24 offices around the globe. I started at King & Spalding right out of law school in 2007; it was very much a different law firm then, a growing regional/national US firm at the time. Since then, through our strategy it has grown into a global powerhouse, and it’s continuing that momentum, exponentially increasing over the past several years.
From a metrics standpoint, our revenue has increased for the 16th consecutive year; we’ve doubled our profitability as a law firm since 2019. There continue to be very few firms that have increased revenue and profitability at the same rate and climbed the ranks like we have over the years.
It’s been an incredible growth story, and we’re now focusing on continuing that story. Our identity goes beyond the rankings and metrics.”
Law firm recruitment teams understand this better than anyone: a firm’s identity is based on far more than just rankings. Often, associates are sold on big name-brand firms because of their market prestige, when in reality, those firms might not be the right fit for certain candidates culturally.
Culture & Talent
Speaking of culture, the general vibe of a firm goes a long way when making a decision for associates. Seriously – we asked them. In our recent survey of over 7,000+ associates, culture was the biggest driver in deciding on which firm to join, but there was less of an emphasis on this topic for our interviewed managing partners when talking about what makes their firm stand out. That said, there is no mistaking: it still is a huge talking point for senior leadership. Ira Coleman, chairman of McDermott, breaks this down:
“Our little hook, our little differentiator – which we think is a huge differentiator – is our people and our culture, what we’re about, and how we bring that attitude and swagger to work every day. We allow our people to come to work as their true self and do some great things. It makes work a more fun and energized place. If you come to work and you don’t feel energetic about things, you’re probably not going to do your best work.
We always say it’s our job to bring that energy level up, whether it’s the things we do around the mental health front and the wellbeing front, what our offices look like, what our technology is, to what we’re like to interact with. Are people nice? Are people kind? And there is a difference between nice and kind.
What we ask is when you talk to people at work, we say, ‘Is it passing through three gates?’ What are those gates? One: is it truthful? We don’t want people lying to each other, right? The second one: is it helpful? The third one: is it kind? Are you trying to help make somebody better?
Everybody wants feedback, that’s part of who we are, and we think we’re really good at it, but we also want to refine that to make it the most helpful feedback it can be. That doesn’t always mean nice, but it means kind, helpful, and truthful. We think that’s something that differentiates us.”
Another takeaway from that graph is that the topic of talent has cropped up a fair amount this year. Something else that is impacting both law firms and the legal recruitment industry is the war for talent: this is not relegated to associates either. It’s impacting all levels of seniority, and the competition is fiercer than it has ever been. So, it’s understandably a top priority for associates to have a career progression opportunities, training, development – a solid platform for them to grow at their chosen firm. 38% of managing partners underlined talent growth and development as a focus for their commercial strategy. One of them is George E. (Jed) Zobitz, managing partner of the corporate department and co-head of the finance practice at Cravath:
“Our lawyers are known for their creative, innovative thinking and their ability to solve complex problems, and that all starts with our training and Rotation System.
Our aim is to build the next generation of Cravath partners primarily from our associate pool, and to always be at the top of the market, doing the most complicated and important matters that our clients face. Talent development is a critical part of that.”
Artificial Intelligence
Lastly, when we asked about the most impactful trend impacting the legal industry as a whole, the words on everyone’s minds were artificial intelligence; understandably so, as the technology has made major strides in the last few years. 31% of interviewed managing partners highlighted AI as the most significant focus in their commercial strategy, while 69% of them said that it was impacting the legal industry the most. There has also been a fair bit of fearmongering, as we’ve learned from our associate interviews, about AI replacing some of the work of junior associates. If true, this could have the domino effect of layoffs or less need for junior talent. But Morgan Lewis’ chair, Jami McKeon, puts that speculation to bed:
“There’s a lot of fear that the legal profession is going to change in a way that will eliminate jobs for associates, and that’s not true. Technology has not hurt us. We were one of the first firms that created an e-data practice more than two decades ago. Before that, we had to crawl on the floor and go through boxes and take handwritten notes.
Has that resulted in less jobs for associates? No. E-data is a $100 million practice for us. And we have grown exponentially in every way since then. Technological advancements has never slowed the need for excellent legal help; it just changes the tools available to use in that effort.
The challenge for every law firm is figuring out to how to use tech in a way that’s advantageous for its client and helps expand the practice for its lawyers. We have to make sure that people don’t lose the mindset of looking for opportunities to be creative, be thoughtful, and be engaged because of their fear that these jobs will go away. I don’t believe they will go away.
What our new and most junior members of the profession should be thinking about is enhancing those things that are called ‘soft skills’ that to me, are leadership skills: creativity, curiosity, empathy, courage, relationship skills, and communication with clients. All those things are going to be really important for long-term success.”
The Fun Bit
Now, without further ado: onto The Fun Bit!
CA: What was the first car you owned?
Vince Guglielmotti, CEO of Brown Rudnick: A Jeep Wrangler!
Herb Washer, chairman of Cahill Gordon & Reindel: The first car I owned was my grandmother’s sky-blue Buick Skylark. She gave that to me after she’d driven it for about 15 years, and I actually loved that car. I wasn’t at all cool – it didn’t help me get dates or anything! But it was a car, and I was happy to have it. That was my first car; I loved that thing, and it ran very well and consistently for years.
The first car I bought after I became a lawyer was a convertible BMW – a BMW 3 series convertible. I had always wanted one; ever since I was a kid I thought they were the coolest thing. It wasn’t very practical, but I couldn’t be dissuaded.
Rachel Proffitt, CEO of Cooley: A Honda Accord – well, it was stick shift. They don’t really make manual transmissions anymore. I really loved that, it was fun for me to learn and drive.
George (Jed) E. Zobitz, managing partner of the corporate department and co-head of the finance practice at Cravath: Ah! I have to think back... I think it was a black Jeep Cherokee, a long time ago.
Vincent H. Cohen Jr., global managing partner at Dechert:It was a twelve-year-old hand-me-down Volvo Sedan that was beige in color when it was new. But I was so excited to get my own car, even though it was twelve years old, I washed it so often that it turned from beige to pink! So, that was my first car, but I didn't own it. I was borrowing it from my father, who gave it to me. So, that's the first car I drove.
(CA: Was he happy with the color change?)
Cohen: No, nobody was, but I couldn't afford to paint it, so it just got pinker and pinker! But there's a 16-year life cycle on a Volvo, usually, so I think I kept it for four years and they finally allowed me to trade it in.
Vinita Kailasanath, partner at Freshfields: I had a Toyota Corolla. It was an automatic, not a stick.
Andrea Basham, partner at Freshfields: I inherited a 70s style Volkswagen bus from my parents. It was blue on the bottom and white on top, and it was a stick, which has served me well in life because I can go anywhere in the world, and I will always be able to drive a stick shift car.
Scott B. Luftglass, vice chairman at Fried Frank: The first car that I owned was a Ford Mustang, which I owned in law school. It was red. It was about as cliché as it could get. I'm not sure it could have been more cliché.
Justin King, partner at King & Spalding: A Saturn SL2 – I don’t even think they make them anymore. My father was a painting contractor; he painted someone’s house and bartered for it, and I got a Saturn in exchange. Eventually, it broke down driving up a mountain and left me stranded.
Ira Coleman, chairman of McDermott:Now I’m going to date myself! A 1973 Plymouth Satellite with no air conditioning but it had a sunroof, and it was very fast, but it was used, and I bought it. I was a paperboy – we used to hand deliver papers to people’s homes. I saved all my money for years and years and years to be able to afford a used car for $750 which sounds ridiculously cheap today but that’s what it was.
Mike Renaud, chair of the intellectual property division at Mintz: I owned a Chevy Cavalier, which was a very modest vehicle, but affordable.
Jami McKeon, chair of Morgan Lewis: That’s such a good question. It depends on how you mean ‘owned.’ I had a yellow Chevy Vega that I shared with my sister when I was in high school and college, and then the very first car I had on my own was a green Mustang when I was in law school.
Chase Simmons, CEO of Polsinelli: I owned a 1965 Mustang convertible… I got to drive it for one week delivering pizzas, but I got lost delivering pizzas. Later that evening my stepdad saw me speeding and that was the end of that!
David Efron, co-managing partner of Schulte: This doesn’t reveal my age – I had a 1972 Pontiac Catalina that was the size of a city block and built out of concrete steel. It was huge!
Barry Wolf, executive partner and chair of the firm’s management committee at Weil: Buick Regal. I remember it well. The body was blue, and the top was white. I loved that car. When I was 17, I was into cars; I washed and waxed it by hand every weekend. It had a V8 engine which they don’t make anymore, so it was fast.
Doug Clark, managing partner at Wilson Sonsini: A 1968 Volkswagen Beetle. I got that car in 1984, so it was an old car at the time. I owned it for a year and then didn’t own a car again until I was over 30 because I lived in Chicago and New York so there was no point having a car there. Then I became a Californian and I’ve had a car every day since.
CA: What memory/moment has stuck with you from law school?
Vince Guglielmotti, CEO of Brown Rudnick: You know Arnold Palmer? He’s a famous golfer. He spoke at my graduation!
Herb Washer, chairman of Cahill Gordon & Reindel: I would say probably ‘Legal Follies’ – we had a law school variety show and it was skits and musical numbers put on by the law students. I remember doing it as a 1L and it was a little crazy because I was studying for my first year of final exams and I was in rehearsals for what we called the ‘Legal Follies’ show. It was an utterly chaotic time in my life, but it was really fun. Some professors would perform in these skits; we had a contracts professor, Wally Miller, and we did one particular number with him. It was really fun – and a way to take your mind off the seriousness of studying for 1L final exams. That’s probably a good example of work/life balance – I’m not sure I achieved perfect work/life balance there, but I just remember being overcommitted to everything at that particular moment. It was also a great way to get to know the people in my law school class that I didn’t know.
The other was as we were preparing for first semester 1L finals. My roommate and I decided to throw an igloo party in our apartment, and covered our apartment in white butchers’ paper to make it look like an igloo. We spent about 100 hours doing that.
Rachel Proffitt, CEO of Cooley: It’s interesting now given the role I have; I used to be terrified of public speaking and the thought of getting called on in class horrified me, I would always get nervous. Once I was in moot court serving as a litigator, it was nerve-wracking, but I won my argument! I remember thinking this solidifies that I’m going be a transactional lawyer - I don’t want to live in court, as it was an emotionally depleting experience. Thinking back now, I still get nervous publicly speaking but I wonder if I had had more experience or exposure to it in law school, would I have loved to litigate and found my way to oral arguments. But alas, here I am – I didn’t see this in law school.
Geroge (Jed) E. Zobitz, managing partner of the corporate department and co-head of the finance practice at Cravath: It was probably my first exam in law school, which I’ll never forget. I went to NYU and lived in Hoboken, and there was a Nor’easter. I remember walking down the steps of the train station to get to my exam, and there was a foot of water cascading down the tracks. I ended up on the last train to the city, and then the PATH actually shut down, so I had to borrow a friend’s car and drive in to the city from there. Because of the intense weather and the travel issues, I almost missed my very first law school exam, which would have certainly added to the stress I was already feeling as a young law student. Looking back, I suppose at that stage of life you’re not really watching the weather to factor it into your day, so I had no idea it was coming…
Vincent H. Cohen Jr., global managing partner at Dechert: My moot court interview and opening statement that I had to do. I knew I wanted to litigate, I knew I wanted to be in court, I knew I wanted to be a trial lawyer but didn't really have the skills my first year of law school to be able to do it as well as I can now. I was not as good as I thought I was going to be, so it was humbling, but it taught me to work harder at preparing for public speaking and doing openings and closings. It led me to hone my craft and try and be a very good, persuasive oral advocate, as well as litigator. So, it was not the best memory, but it was a good memory that allowed me to always go back and think about how far I've come in that skillset.
Vinita Kailasanath, partner at Freshfields: I met a woman named Karen on my first day of law school, who sat next to me in our section and ended up being my very best friend all through law school. She was very serious, probably more than I was, and already thinking about what she was going to do for her career. So, I was telling her about my background and what I was interested in, and she looked at me and said, ‘You are 100% going to be a transactional lawyer in a big global firm.’ She was right, and here I am today.
Andrea Basham, partner at Freshfields: Really just feeling like it was a time of intense change. I remember taking capital markets as the financial markets were collapsing in 2010. When you’re a law student and it feels like the world is changing around you, in an odd way you are actually in an incredible place of privilege because you get to sit and think about these things with some objectivity. You get to talk with amazing professors, you have access to government officials who want to speak at your school, to law firm practitioners who are on the board of visitors or teaching guest classes. In retrospect, it’s amazing to think that I was taught by a former SEC Commissioner who would print out the front page of the Wall Street Journal every morning and talk to us about it. To law school readers, I would encourage you to take advantage of the resources that are available to you because it may take you a decade or more once you’re out of that law school environment to get back to that level of access and insight.
Scott B. Luftglass, vice chairman at Fried Frank: Luftglass: I met my wife in law school, January 18, 2003. Walking up to her at Jay Levin's party, introducing myself and asking her out on a date. You're not going to get a better memory than that for me.
Justin King, partner at King & Spalding: It’s the relationships that I’ve made – some of my best relationships from that time are clients today! I’m still in contact with my closest friends from law school; it just goes to show the power of friendship and networking inside this profession. It starts in law school; in fact, I wished one of my buddies from law school a ‘happy birthday’ this morning who was inside the Department of Justice and is now a partner elsewhere. It’s not the classes I remember, but the people I connected with and the friends I made.
Ira Coleman, chairman of McDermott: I had to work in law school to pay for law school, so I was always running back and forth from work and school, work and school. I didn’t realize one day, I was working so much, that I had a suit and tie on, and it was a Saturday and I walked into law school and everybody laughed at me, because we were just studying, it was just some of our friends studying and they were like ‘What are you doing?’ You know, it’s Florida, so everybody was wearing shorts and t-shirts and all comfortable and I was in this, and I remember being made fun of. You can’t take yourself too seriously is the takeaway from that! You can work hard but don’t take yourself too seriously because then everybody will laugh at you.
Mike Renaud, chair of the intellectual property division at Mintz: I remember having a wonderful teacher who was teaching European Union law, and she made it clear that the world was not only about US law. The US lawyers focusing on US law alone without integrating other legal paradigms and the needs of their clients really struck me. At the time, the EU was just coming into its own, and there were a series of treaties being put into place. Long story short, my teacher couldn’t have been more right. Her focus wasn’t IP, but it would turn out that my specialization would have the exact predicted trend she gave me, and it reached its pinnacle in the last 18 months with the Unified Patent Court. She was a wonderfully visionary professor, excited in presenting that it wasn’t all about America and she was dead right. That’s paid dividends the entire time for me as a lawyer.
Jami McKeon, chair of Morgan Lewis: It’s not so much a memory, but when I went to law school, I was scared I wasn’t smart enough. I worked really hard in every class, I read every book. My way of relaxing was watching M*A*S*H or murder mysteries like Matlock. I took law school seriously, and I really loved it. I had nothing to do but worry about myself, but it really made me love law.
In law school, I had a professor who taught admin law. She believed that everyone should be required to do pro bono because in so many ways, lawyers have a monopoly and so many people don’t know how to navigate the legal system. Back in 1980, Morgan Lewis already gave billable credit for pro bono, but that professor – Mary Jo Frug – influenced my belief in 100% pro bono participation. Tragically, she was shockingly murdered long ago, but I can see her face clear as day… she really had an impact on me and how I look at the responsibility of being an attorney.
Chase Simmons, CEO of Polsinelli: I really enjoyed law school! On my first day I connected with some friends that became lifelong friends. We thought, “We’re all going to be overwhelmed with law school together!”
Marc Elovitz, co-managing partner at Schulte: I did a clinical program in my third year of law school where you had to meet with a real client. I thought in the very first meeting that I had it all down, but in the moment, I sat across the table from a client for the first time, I realized that this was their real life and not just an abstract theory you learn in law school. It was a galvanizing moment for me and made me very excited to graduate from law school and actually practice law.
Barry Wolf, executive partner and chair of the firm’s management committee at Weil: The first time I got called on was by a professor using the Socratic method in the first year of law school – and the professor’s name was Francis Allen. I remember to this day getting called on and engaging in the Socratic back-and-forth method. For me, this is probably the thing that stands out the most – and then going out celebrating with friends afterwards. This was a tradition among my friends.
Doug Clark, managing partner at Wilson Sonsini: There’s not a specific one that comes to mind, but frankly just hanging out with a really brilliant set of men and women. It was a great experience for me, and formative. I’ve been lucky to keep in touch with a number of classmates and two of them are partners at the firm which is a lot of fun actually. When I think of law school, I’m creating new memories with law school friends all the time.
CA: Which actor/actress would you want to play you in a biopic about your life?
Herb Washer, chairman of Cahill Gordon & Reindel: I don’t think I can answer that question! I have to say I haven’t given it a lot of thought – I hope no one would ever make a movie about my life. I would go with a young Harrison Ford. He did a legal movie long ago called ‘Regarding Henry.’ I started at what became Clifford Chance Rogers and Wells and it was actually filmed in our offices and, of course, everybody was all atwitter about it. It was a great movie, and young Harrison Ford made an excellent lawyer, so I’d go with that!
Rachel Proffitt, CEO of Cooley: That’s a great one – Gwyneth Paltrow!
Geroge (Jed) E. Zobitz, managing partner of the corporate department and co-head of the finance practice at Cravath: That’s a good question. I don’t know! Maybe Harrison Ford… and the only reason I’m saying this is because a friend of mine’s wife is convinced that I sound like him, but I don’t think I do!
Vincent H. Cohen Jr., global managing partner at Dechert: Denzel Washington. He is a wonderful actor. I remember in a movie called Glory, he was in a situation where he was getting physically assaulted and they had a close up of his face and he had one teardrop come out of his eye and I was very impressed. I was like, how can you cry on demand? And only have one tear come out of your eye? You gotta be a great actor, so I would love Denzel Washington to play me, but I'm sure he wouldn't because my life's not that exciting!
Vinita Kailasanath, partner at Freshfields: People have told me that I look a bit like Mila Kunis. I would also be happy to be played by any of America Ferrera, Emilia Clarke, Aubrey Plaza, Mayim Bialik or Mindy Kaling.
Andrea Basham, partner at Freshfields: Jennifer Connelly is probably about my age in real life, and I have watched her play roles that have always resonated with me at different phases of my life and do them very well. So, growing up, she always reminded me of someone who has dealt with similar circumstances.
Scott B. Luftglass, vice chairman at Fried Frank: I'll be honest, if you asked that question of my wife or anyone who's friendly with me, they would all say Jon Lovitz because I used to be teased for looking a little bit like him. I wouldn't say that would be, like, my choice. I wouldn't mind having an actor that had a full head of hair and was tall. If you have to make it loosely based, I'd love for it to be an actor who could maybe improve upon some of my shortcomings. So, I'd love it to be like someone like George Clooney, but I don't think the casting director would feel like that was a fair capture.
Justin King, partner at King & Spalding: That’s a tough one! Not that we have any similarities, but it has to be Matthew McConaughey. He has a cool factor I aspire to, and I like his blue-collar story as well; with his background, he would play mine pretty well.
Ira Coleman, chairman of McDermott: George Clooney. I just say it because that’s my wife’s crush; we’re going to see him on Broadway soon. I’ll give you a better one then – Jon Lovitz, because people sometimes say I look like him.
Mike Renaud, chair of the intellectual property division at Mintz: I used to have a head of red hair, so I used to say it could be Ryan O’Neal or Robert Redford. Now, as an old man, most people probably don’t know who they are, but it would be one of them if they were playing me in my youth. I don’t know who would play me now!
Jami McKeon, chair of Morgan Lewis: It’s a hard one because nobody reminds me of me, but I have so many favorite actresses. I think the actress I’d really want to play me is Greer Garson. She’s spunky, edgy, witty, but she’s passed on. Currently? Sandra Bullock, Anne Hathaway.
Chase Simmons, CEO of Polsinelli: Tom Hanks! The movie would be a good movie.
David Efron, co-managing partner of Schulte: Zac Efron – we’ve got the name, so we don’t have to change that much.
Barry Wolf, executive partner and chair of the firm’s management committee at Weil: I was thinking of George Clooney or Richard Gere; let’s go with Richard Gere.
Doug Clark, managing partner at Wilson Sonsini: I have to be realistic on that front and not aim for the stars in terms of charisma or appearance. I think I’m living in the sort of John Malkovich zone basically, and I think I would be played by a dynamic character actor, so no Brad Pitt for me. I think that’s the zone, living in the Malkovich zone, maybe Willem Dafoe. I’m very self-aware on that front!