DLA Piper LLP (US) - The Inside View

Make no mistake – despite being a teenaged law firm (the result of a three-way, transatlantic merger in 2005), DLA Piper is no rebellious adolescent. Rather, as one of the largest firms not only in the US but the world, it’s a textbook overachiever with a 4.0 GPA and eligibility for early graduation – it definitely would’ve been the class valedictorian. The firm has earned enough gold stars to cover a sheet of A4, collecting over 100 (!) accolades from Chambers USA. And with a presence in over 40 countries and more than 26 offices across the US, we’d bet that it would’ve aced geography class too! DLA’s curriculum offers a broad depth and breadth of practices across corporate and finance, employment, government affairs, IP & technology, litigation, real estate, and tax, with overarching global expertise. “It fits the bill perfectly,” one junior praised. “The beauty of DLA Piper is you work across offices and blend resources accordingly.”  

“I’ve worked with several cross-border organizations across Europe, the Middle East, and the US.”  

The global aspect of the firm carries over to the work, too. A source confirmed that the firm “proved to provide international work – I’ve worked with several cross-border organizations across Europe, the Middle East, and the US.” Don’t worry if that sounds a tad overwhelming; an interviewee kindly reassured us that although “DLA is a big global firm, I don’t want that to intimidate anyone. In New York at least, it has a smaller feel with the resources of working at a big firm, and that has to do with the people you work with in your group.” Speaking with our interviewees, many wanted a firm where “I could be my authentic self,” as one source recalled being asked to “come to the callback and be yourself.” This sealed the deal for those who wanted “to get an idea of how down-to-earth the people and partners are.” In terms of location, unsurprisingly, the largest group of associates on our list were in New York, its biggest US office, with the rest spread across a comprehensive network of offices from East to West including Boston, Chicago, and DC.  

Strategy & Future  

“Remember, the firm is only 18 years old,” co-US managing partner Richard Chesley reminds us. The office reflects that too. “We don’t have the burden of legacy,” he continues. “We are not tied to the past, which means that we can take risks and be nimble.” So, what’s in the cards for DLA? “We’ve been focusing on what I call the ‘Americas go-to market strategy,’”he shares, which focuses on strengthening connections between “2,300 lawyers spanning the hemisphere from Santiago to Montreal” and “allows us to create a power”with the trade connections across the Americas, the emphasis being on onshoring and nearshoring in the legal market.   

With development on the mind, DLA asks: “How do we make this more engaging for the junior lawyers coming in – the next generation?” The answer is retooling the entire training and mentorship programs for associates and newly appointed partners, and a focus on AI in which the firm has “invested substantially. We have built an entire team focused on recognizing where the industries and markets are going.” Plus, Chesley highlights continual investment in DEI and ESG that “strengthens us as a firm and creates a workplace where top talent can thrive.” 

Read more from Richard Chesley under the ‘Get Hired’ tab.  

The Work  

DLA Piper works largely across two verticals: disputes and transactions. Most of the associates on our list were in the corporate and litigation groups, and the rest were scattered across a variety of practices including (but not limited to) real estate; trademark, copyright, and media; labor and employment; and investment funds. Work isn’t limited to your home office, as “the firm is really interconnected. So, if there’s a group you want to work with, you can because of the hybrid structure – across from California to Chicago.”   

Staffing is mostly free market, determined by “one – availability, and two – interpersonal relationships.” With this system, associates highlighted that “you need to keep your ears to the wall and be proactive about getting work.” Recent change means that, for first-years, work will come from an assignment hub run by four resource managers across disputes and transactions. The benefit of this is that “you’ll immediately know who to talk to, and you’ll build up the relationships,” as well as making it easier to “generate more billables for juniors.”  

“There’s not a single aspect of a case I haven’t been a part of!”  

International arbitration, government affairs, IP, tech, antitrust, employment – these are just samples of the expansive range of disputes offered at DLA. From investors and companies to sovereigns, “we represent clients through the entire life cycle.” Litigation provides the opportunity for juniors to explore too, as one associate detailed that even though “I’m technically still very early, I could carve out a different area. I’ve done a lot of different things; I don’t want to be monolithic, so if you want to do it, it’s there – from IP to white-collar investigations to securities, there’s something that suits everyone.” Interviewees mentioned their involvement in a range of matters, from “small cases of contract dispute to the bigger companies in the world, up to litigation worth billions of dollars.” Typical junior tasks might include some good old-fashioned doc review, research, drafting letters and memos, and even stepping up to eventually drafting a witness outline or defense. As one associate shared in a sentiment echoed by others, “in my experience, there’s no ‘you’re in this year, so you can only do this.’ There’s not a single aspect of a case I haven’t been a part of!”   

Disputes clients: Goldman Sachs, Pfizer, Nike. Won dismissal of a putative nationwide class action against Ferragamo USA, Saks Fifth Avenue, and Neiman Marcus.  

Under the transactional umbrella at DLA, matters consist of real estate transactions, debt financing, corporate transactions, private equity M&A, and IPOs. Clients include big portfolio firms, and we were told that “it’s interesting to see how the projects are developed from start to finish, as well as how you get them to buy and then sell.” Associates listed their day-to-day duties as lots of due diligence, writing memos, taking board meeting minutes, and drafting ancillary documents “using precedent to conform to the deal.” When it came down to rating their overall responsibility, with lean staffing, “yes, they absolutely let you do significant tasks early on. It’s a cool learning curve – challenging, but you learn quickly as clients don’t necessarily know who is junior, mid-level, or senior, so people will step in and help. We get opportunities from the get-go!”  

Corporate clients: T-Mobile, John Deere, General Mills. Represented Philip Morris International on its $16 billion acquisition of Swedish Match AB.  

Career Development  

“People are legitimately interested in your success as an attorney,” sources told us. DLA has implemented various “very specific and targeted” training modules across each firm class, such as deposition training, trial practice, negotiations and contract drafting. This mandatory training is “a big thing each year,” providing the opportunity to connect with other associates and partners from across offices. Plus, “it was great to see how much the partners enjoyed it as well!” This accompanies monthly webinars and department training lunches, both of which cover topics like client relations and depositions. The firm has also recently introduced a new 15-month development program, Catalyst, for associates who are on track for partnership. 

New associates are assigned an associate and partner adviser who remain a touch point throughout the years: “You’re encouraged to meet with them to go over skill plans at the beginning of each year, and then reflect upon your work throughout, seeing how it aligns with those goals.” Many spoke positively of informal mentorship they’ve picked up along the way, as one associate shared that one of their mentors “isn’t their official mentor, but they wanted to informally mentor me.” Going the extra mile, a partner told one junior: “‘I’m happy to simulate a negotiation, mark it up, and send it back’ – even with their own busy work!”   

When it comes to climbing the ladder to partnership, many felt it was attainable, as “we’ve seen a number of people make partner or counsel.” A junior commented, “I’ve seen laterals and people who’ve been here for over a decade become partner.”   

Hours & Compensation  

Billable hours: 2,000 target

Luckily for our associates, their 2,000-hour bonus target can be comprised of 150 pro bono and non-billable equivalents such as business development, training, recruitment and participation in diversity initiatives. Sources reported working roughly from 9am to 7pm, with the occasional log-on after dinner. According to our survey results, this was highlighted as a point of potential improvement for the firm, with 56% of associates thinking that the hours are reasonable, and the workload is manageable. That said, all in all, people are “sensitive to weekends and don’t expect you to work unless there’s a closing – they value you seeing friends and family.” Moreover, “if something is urgent, they do let you know and are appreciative.”   

The message interviewees wanted to convey was “as long as you get the work done, people are pretty flexible. If I wanted to work more in the morning or the afternoon, people don’t complain.” Also, although you need to come in at least three days a week, “people are flexible about working from home,” too!  

“From East to West, there’s no shortage of work...”  

In terms of managing workload, DLA has a system in place for first years to give them a helping hand. “At the end of every Friday, you email them to let them know how many hours you’ve worked that week and what you expect in terms of hours for the next,” one associate explained. “Sometimes, they reach out saying people in Chicago or New York, for example, are looking for juniors and want staff for those deals. From East to West, there’s no shortage of work, as there will always be one office in need.”   

Culture  

“They want to mold you into the associate you want to be.”  

Associates described “a culture of warmth at DLA.” With the hybrid work model, “people reach out and greet each other, and there’s inter-practice interaction that is both harmonious and collaborative.” Another interviewee detailed: “Everyone is so friendly and eager to help – they know you don’t know everything, and they want to mold you into the associate you want to be.” And whilst the firm was described as a “very entrepreneurial” place where “people go above and beyond, it’s not all work and no play.” Generally, “people are well-rounded and have interests and hobbies outside of work. You feel like you can talk to them.”   

It was mentioned that joining during the pandemic made it difficult to grasp what the social life at the firm was like as people slowly started coming back to the office. But in talking with associates, it was highlighted that there are frequent happy hours and summer associate events. For example, we heard there’s been a Nike customization event in NYC, a Justin Timberlake concert in Chicago, and a yacht cruise and Porsche experience for those in LA – sounds snazzy! There’s also a monthly training session for litigation and corporate which is followed by some evening socializing, where “we go to a bar for food and drinks.”   

Pro Bono  

“You’re able to have a high level of impact for people who need it.”  

Looking for a huge range of pro bono opportunities? At DLA, “you name it, and they’ll find something for you.” This covers non-profit clinic matters, domestic violence, immigration, veterans and LGBTQIA+ rights, death penalty cases, and even corporate work like advising emerging companies. A source spoke highly about working on a successful matter for a veteran, affirming that “you’re able to have a high level of impact for people who need it. It means a lot to them, and that victory is significant to their lives.”   

A unique offering at DLA is the two scholarships that the firm grants to first years, allowing them to focus entirely on pro bono for the year.  Another special highlight is that as a firm with global connections, the New Perimeter nonprofit affiliate assists regions by widening their access to justice and socioeconomic development. This includes efforts “in Gambia, training aspiring judges and senior governmental lawyers by sharpening their cross-examination skills.” 

Associates need to hit the 60-hour pro bono minimum to be eligible for their bonus, and anyone surpassing the 150-hour threshold can get a further 50 hours approved by the firm, but one associate had “never heard of anyone being refused for being on a case that continues to be active.” 

Pro bono hours   

• For all (US) attorneys: 114,000+ 
• Average per (US) attorney: 67.5  

Diversity, Equity & Inclusion  

At DLA Piper, there is “an affinity group for everyone.” Interviewees mentioned a variety of networks: Bridge, the Black resource group; Iris for the LGBTQIA+ community; and LAW for women, as well as the Hispanic Latino, Asian Pacific Islander, working parents, and veterans’ networks. There is also a recently established Jewish resource group. 

“It’s great to see how many female partners have high positions at DLA with families and children…”  

Our sources commented that “it’s great to see how many female partners have high positions at DLA with families and children, one of them being the head of litigation and managing partner of the office. It isn’t just those in leadership, though – there are others, and it’s great to see them throughout the ranks.” Furthermore, DLA is Mansfield 6.0 Certified Plus; this means that the firm has at least 30% underrepresented lawyers in its leadership. The firm also offers the Raja Gaddipati Fellowship, providing undergraduates an in-house pipeline and insight into working at the firm.

Get Hired

LATERAL PROFILE: Thinking of lateraling to DLA Piper? Here's all you need to know...

The first stage: recruitment on and off campus  

“DLA Piper considers its summer associate program one of the most important initiatives the Firm undertakes,” notes John Hamill, National Recruiting Partner. “We seek students who have demonstrated a high academic performance, relentless engagement in their chosen endeavors, and a willingness to engage in hard but rewarding work. We also look for strong records of accomplishment and leadership.” DLA Piper posts all of its summer associate positions to its website and invites students from any law school to apply.  

Lawyers from across DLA Piper’s offices participate in the initial interviews. “The firm has partners or teams of partners and associates (often alumni) conduct the initial interviews,” notes Stacy Silverstone, Chief Talent Acquisition Officer. Questions typically are designed to “allow us to go beyond the facts on a resume and discover and confirm the candidate’s abilities and talents, helping ensure candidates are evaluated equally.”  

Top tips for this stage:  

“Look for opportunities to engage with the Firm outside of formal interviews. For example, DLA Piper hosts DLA Piper Day in early January. This is an opportunity to see one of our offices and network with DLA Piper lawyers. We also host a variety of receptions around the country throughout the year.” – John Hamill, National Hiring Partner 

“We recruit based on the structure of our major practice groups. Candidates should find out as much about us and our practice areas as they can – through our website and social media, by speaking with our attorneys and alumni, and by asking their school career services office. We realize that deciding whether to interview with a firm or accept an offer is an important decision, so we want candidates to feel they have as much information as possible.” –Stacy Silverstone, Chief Talent Acquisition Officer 

“Our interviewers aim to get to know you beyond your resume. Focus on giving them a sense of life experiences that will help you be a successful lawyer and contributor to our firm.” – John Hamill, National Hiring Partner 

Callbacks  

The focus at this stage is on having candidates meet with members of the practice group in which they are interested and with lawyers in the geography in which they want to work. As with the initial interview, questions are often behavioral, as Silverstone tells us: “Our focus at this stage is really on getting as complete a picture of the candidates as we can.”  

Top tips for this stage:  

“Be authentic. The callback interview is a chance for us to get to know the candidates and for them to get to know us.” – John Hamill, National Hiring Partner 

Summer program  

Hamill says summer associates at DLA Piper “will participate in robust training programs that will enable them to gain new skills and experiences during the summer, in ways that their law schools typically do not afford them. Summer associates will have the opportunity to contribute to meaningful client projects across cutting-edge practices and sectors. They also will be encouraged to make devote significant time to pro bono work.”  Hamill stresses that “it is equally important that summer associates spend time socializing with each other and with lawyers in their office and practice group.”   

Silverstone tells us the firm “is invested in partnering with the summer associates to support their development during the summer and beyond.” Summer associates are assigned advisors, readers to review their written products, and work coordinators that round-out that support team.  

“The highlight of our program is our annual summer associate academy,” Hamilltells us. This two-and-a-half-day event brings together summer associates from around the country, giving them the chance to hear from and meet firm’s leaders, participate in training sessions, and build meaningful relationships that will last beyond the summer program. 

Top tips for this stage:  

“We encourage summer associates to engage with the summer program as much as possible. By that, we mean try to be present each day. Take advantage of opportunities for informal lunches and coffees. Seek out connections with lawyers, partners, and business professionals and participate fully in the training opportunities offered.” –Stacy Silverstone, Chief Talent Acquisition Officer 

And finally...  

Hamill says, “Throughout the interview stages, interviewers are looking for individuals who are driven by challenges and actively embrace a culture of collaboration and excellence.” 

Interview with Richard Chesley, Global Managing Partner; US Co-Managing Partner

Commercial strategy, market position and trends 

Chambers Associate: How would you define your firm’s current position and identity in the legal market? What differentiates your firm from your peer firms in the market? 

Richard Chesley: At the end of the day, we are defining ourselves as a modern dynamic innovator in the legal industry, in constant pursuit of innovation and how we deliver services to our clients. Remember the firm is only 18 years old, and that gives us enormous flexibility to accomplish what we are seeking to do. The nature of our business, the diversity of our practices and lawyers allows us to really embed ourselves with our clients and expand those relationships across our two practice verticals: disputes and transactions and throughout our industry sectors, and that right now is differentiating us in the market.  

CA: Have there been any developments at the firm over the past year that you’d like law students to know about?  

Chesley: There have been a lot, and some of these have been more over the past couple of years but are part of a continuum of how we are developing. As a young firm, we don’t have the burden, or some would say we don’t have the benefit, of legacy; we are not tied to the past, which means that we can take risks and be nimble. We performed particularly well through the pandemic and with changes in the economy we continue to press forward. The way our practice groups work together and cross-sell, and the way junior lawyers work across practices and multiple industry sectors is a really important piece of this. From a geographic standpoint, our lawyers have always been accustomed to working in teams across the US and internationally, so the transition for us during Covid was much easier than I think for many firms, and how we have transitioned back post-Covid is also very unique. We’ve rebuilt our training and mentoring programs in the post-Covid environment to reflect the support our lawyers need in terms of training and mentoring, while also factoring in the community feel that the office brings, which has been enormously successful. 

Another area where I think we have been incredibly nimble is AI, where we have invested substantially. We have built an entire team focused on recognizing where the industries and markets are going. Another area that we expect to see significant growth is in the regulatory and life sciences sector. Former Senator Richard Burr, based in North Carolina, leads the firm’s health policy and strategics consulting practice, which we predict will be a critically important resource for our clients throughout the United States. 

Lastly, I cannot stress enough our focus on our communities, and our pro-bono efforts in 2022. The firm gave 217,000 hours of free legal advice, making us one of the largest providers in the world. I sit on the board of our non-profit affiliate New Perimeter, and we collaborate with partners throughout the world, delivering high quality legal training across all corners of the world. We’ve just finished a program in Zambia paired with one of our clients and in 2024 we will be back on the ground in East Asia, Africa and South America.  

This is just a bit of what we are working on and some of the things we’re working with. It shows our strategy and ability to adapt to change is making us a go-to firm for clients and lawyers throughout the country.  

CA: Are there any domestic or international events/trends that are affecting any of the firm’s practices at the moment? Are there any trends that you think are affecting the business of law firms more generally, and how is that playing out with your firm? 

Chesley: Practice areas for sure; there are certainly areas that are going to be impacted by markets. Obviously, there was a considerable slowdown in 2023 in capital markets, private equity, and in M&A, especially at the very top of the cycle. Because of the depth and breadth of our practices, we have been able to maintain a strong transactional practice in the face of the slowdown. Part of that is our ability to bring multiple practices together. For transactions, I just finished a deal where we had probably 35 lawyers from every practice group providing support to a client on an expediated M&A transaction that was being done through bankruptcy. So, we are able to move very nimbly in an economic slowdown, because our firm is split 50/50 between disputes and transactions. We have diversity within our practice that allows us to compete at a really high end.  

CA: What is your firm’s commercial strategy focusing on? 

Chesley: Our management leadership structure makes decisions based around our clients and communities. We’ve been focusing on what I call the ‘Americas go-to market strategy.’ We’ve been operating in Canada and Latin America for a number of years but have not fully taken advantage of the opportunities created to bring these practices and markets closer together. This is critical when you realize the US-Canada trade relationship is the largest in the world, while US-Mexico is the third, and the focus on onshoring or nearshoring makes where we are in these markets critical. We have focused an enormous amount of time on bringing these together. We have 2,300 lawyers spanning the hemisphere from Santiago to Montreal. We have strong transactions and disputes practices in all those markets, and bringing those together allows us to create a power. So, for example, I recently went to Brazil with our US Associate Advisory Council, comprised of some of our top associate talent, to meet with their Brazilian counterparts to help them understand how they can work together. The goal of this trip was to show our US and Brazilian associates that our firm may be large, but that they should form relationships with peers who can complement their practice. Our clients depend on us to have deep, dynamic relationships with colleagues of varied skillsets who can quickly mobilize to help them meet their goals.   

Inside the Firm 

CA: How is the firm evolving to accommodate the needs/expectations of the next generation of lawyers? 

Chesley: Much of it is to do with how we are structured and organized, so we are nimble and balanced. We are a firm comprised of a broad geography and lots of lawyers, so how do we make this more engaging for the junior lawyers coming in – the next generation? The work environment and type of work, which is interesting and challenging, gives them the ability to work with lawyers across the US and the world on a daily basis, which is what so many young lawyers are looking for.  

We just finished our first academy for our new associates where we met for three days in Chicago; we focused on what we can do support the next generation. We talked about our practices, the diversity in practice, training, working across the firm, the AI practice and how we can support our clients and firm in that space. We had a conversation about ESG, and our commitment to sustainability and where they can be supportive of that. We have published our first US sustainability report, which I think is a really strong document that shows our commitment. Another thing that is important to the next generation is a commitment to D&I. I don’t think there is a firm that has as large a support system in place for embracing and cultivating diversity in the workplace. It strengthens us as a firm and creates a workplace where top talent can thrive and deliver the best solutions to our clients who are looking for this as well. Putting this entire package together, we will continue to evolve.  

Part of this is the next generation of partners as well. We have retooled our entire training and mentoring program to make it more relevant to both where the practices and disciplines are going, and where our strengths lie. We recognize the importance for partners as they transition up to partnership or come in laterally for partnership. So, we have created a full partner integration program to provide training and support. We recognize that providing that support to all our partners is absolutely critical. It creates the culture, or what I would say the stickiness; it creates what I would call true DLA partners.  In fact, we are starting to work with our most senior associates and of counsel to make sure that they are prepared for becoming partners. 

CA: I’ve been talking to associates who were explaining that there is a new assignment hub. Would you please be able to explain it in some more detail, and perhaps the reasoning behind this change?  

Chesley: It is pretty simple. The work hub allows us to allocate work to associates based upon associate seniority, experience, and sector knowledge.  It helps us to ensure that each associate has an appropriate flow of work, and it also introduces partners and senior associates to a broader array of associate talent throughout the firm. I think people like it. We have incredible talent throughout the country, so gone are the historic days of walking down the hall to get an assignment.  The work hub allows us to pair associates with more senior lawyers and partners, thus providing greater opportunities to develop their skillsets and, ultimately, lead to better results for our clients. 

CA: What’s the firm’s approach to bolstering diversity, equity, and inclusion?  

Chesley: We support a number of initiatives and have eight separate active resource groups which focus on the development and advancement of all our teams. To support our associates’ participation, all lawyers can attribute 50 hours spent on diversity and inclusion, or other charitable services, to meeting their bonus requirement. We invest in pipeline programs for continued growth and impact in the profession. We have the Raja Gaddipati Fellowship program for diverse undergraduate students considering legal careers. That group joins us throughout the summer, and some have become summer associates and associates at the firm. The firm has a robust national Diversity and Inclusion team that hosts national events for our people and highlights heritage months.  In May 2023, for example, the firm welcomed more than 300 of our lawyers and clients to a diversity and inclusion summit to engage in discussions focusing on career-building and networking. The firm also supports local diversity and inclusion committees that organize local events so that their members can join together in a collaborative way. Our goal is to make everyone feel welcome and to create opportunities to connect in meaningful ways. 

The Legal Profession 

CA: How do you predict the rise in AI will affect the ways in which lawyers work? How will it affect the services law firms provide?  

Chesley: This is a question we get asked every day, will AI take away my job? My answer is the same every time: AI is not going to take away your job if you are a critical legal thinker. It will make your job more important; it will alleviate some of the burdens of young lawyership. I spent the first six months of my legal practice reading documents in a warehouse – you don’t do that anymore. The key for us is to find and develop critical thinking lawyers who can provide strategic guidance based upon the data assimilated for them. Be it a transactional or litigation matter, the key thing is going to be the ability to synthesize information to deliver top quality services. I tell everyone: don’t fear AI, embrace AI. The legal industry will continue to evolve. It probably changes slower than most, but those tools are out there to make our job better and, in many ways, more challenging. The lawyers who will be able to deal with those challenges will succeed, and our platform is absolutely built for that success.  

CA: Are there any particular challenges the legal industry is facing? 

Chesley: Yes, absolutely. I think macroeconomics and global politics are all challenges that the legal industry has to face. In the US for example, there is an inbound sensation of Chinese investment – a lot of firms relied upon it. Where is the money going? It is going to Latin America, Western Canada, and Australia where we have practices. We’ve discussed how we can attract more of the inbound investment to Chile, Peru, Argentina, Brazil, and Mexico. These are challenges that we are adept at facing. Nobody is immune from geopolitical risk right now. I was just on the phone with a partner who heads our Tel Aviv office; these are humanitarian, not business, issues. You work on those first and foremost. They are our people, our partners, our team. You have to be nimble and be prepared to work with geopolitical risk and it is only going to be more pronounced. We have a team focused on addressing this geopolitical risk, and it is something the leadership spends a lot of sleepless nights preparing for, so we don’t have to worry about it.  

The Fun Bit 

CA: Is there any advice you’d give to your younger self starting out your career? 

Chesley: It is advice I give our young associates when I speak with them, which is ‘be patient’. I was probably a wee bit impatient. It served me well back then, but that was a long time ago. I think really take the time and embrace what is out there. This is an incredible experience; whether you stay here your whole career or go into government, another company or another firm or do something else with your life, take all of this in and embrace it and be patient in your development. If you do that, good things will come.  

CA: Is there a movie/TV show/books about lawyers or the legal profession that you particularly enjoy? And how accurate would you say it is? 

Chesley: There are so many and none of them are accurate! It’s funny – my youngest son was a chef, and he’s in the food industry. He can’t watch ‘The Bear’ – it’s too close to him! The one that I love now and sort of most recent is ‘Succession’, which is not about lawyers, but it is about a lawyer. Gerri (the general counsel) is my favorite character because of the way she deals with complex dysfunctional situations. I deal with general counsel every day and that is probably the most true to course depiction of a general counsel you will ever see. Much better than watching Suits or something like that, so my hats off to Gerri!