Milbank LLP - The Inside View

Milbank has long stood tall in the world of BigLaw – not just for being the firm that once set the standards for associate salaries, but for how it continues to balance ambition and humanity, says its associates: “To an extent, BigLaw firms are a billing machine, but Milbank strives to strike the best balance.” This goes for its locations too: this New Yorker is headquartered in Hudson Yards (where most of our associates were calling us from), but the firm also has national offices in Washington DC and Los Angeles, along with eight international bases.  

“It’s the highest level of clients, events, and prestige, but there’s a human touch too.” 

The firm’s stance in changing the legal industry may be a big reason for joining this firm, but insiders made it clear that it’s the people that really count. As one underlined, “It’s the highest level of clients, events, and prestige, but there’s a human touch too.” While our interviewees can speak to the latter, our sister guide, Chambers USA, can back up the firm’s prestige. Bankruptcy/restructuring receives a standing ovation in New York, while the firm gets its flowers nationwide for capital markets: securitization: CLOs, a whole host of projects work (mining & metals, power, renewables & alternative energy), space, and transportation: aviation: finance. As such, we weren’t surprised by associates’ insistence that Milbank is a dark horse that aspiring attorneys should keep an eye on: “Milbank is a firm that is actively growing and not stagnating,” one nodded, “That’s definitely something to watch out for.”  

Strategy & Future

"We're going to continue to attract the top talent at the associate level. That is a big part of our strategy,” says practice group leader of the litigation & arbitration group, and co- chair of the Milbank’s hiring committee, Alex Lees. Milbank’s commercial strategy is something the firm prides itself on, “our commercial strategy is always the same,” highlighted Lees, adding that: “It is that we need to continue to achieve substantive excellence and grow the firm… Size is important. Scale is important.” 

However, Lees stated how the firm does not just grow for the sake of growing. “We are very choosy about whom we invite into our practice,” shared Lees. Adding that it’s not only about substantive excellence, the candidate also has to fit within the workplace and the values that the firm holds. In regard to artificial intelligence, Milbank is a firm that isn’t allowing it to slip through their fingers. Lees highlighted how everyone at the firm is expected to be adapting to the new tools that are available, adding how those who chose to learn the tools we will turn into "more productive and efficient workers."  

Summer Program  

One thing about summering at Milbank is that there will never be a shortage of activities. Associates applauded the constant events that were held over the eight-to-ten-week period, claiming that there were at least twenty (!) offsite events. This included a day trip to Six Flags, a Dodgers baseball game, and a day trip to Catalina Island. Former summers discussed how the firm allows you to really “take the reins” on pro bono assignments; they also mentioned being able to get insight into what associate life at the firm looks like. “I got to be looped in a lot of deals, sit in a lot of client calls, and observe and shadow associates in the group,” one reminisced. Sources advised summers to try everything, noting that it’s a suitable time to figure out your interests. Additionally, one interviewee advised: “Learn how to do the simple things that feel like admin tasks; you’ll have to do it your whole career anyway.” 

The Work 

We were told that staffing works slightly differently across groups, oscillating between a centralized, relationship-based, and hybrid work assignment system. That said, all groups have a staffing partner who oversees workflow.  

If you’re looking for a fast-paced practice, Milbank’s alternative investments group could be the right fit for you. As one associate put it, “We are unique in that we do not do the same deal twice.” This group is split into structured finance and structured credit/collateralized loan obligations, derivatives, direct lending, and specialty finance (including rescue and DIP financings). “Partners in this group really try to give you a wide breadth of work until you specify something particular to them,” an interviewee commented, “Juniors are really able to get involved in a wide range of deals.” Clients here tend to be distressed companies, or companies “outside the top belt of finance, such that they require unique solutions for their problems.”  

Juniors repeatedly mentioned that adaptability is a necessary trait to thrive within the group: “The deals are going to change, and things will go wrong,” a rookie admitted, “You need to be prepared for things to go south quickly and be present the whole time.” Also important is having a “mathematical mind,” another interviewee suggested, “You have to figure out how the numbers work.” Admittedly “in some moments, the pace is really high,” so there is a need to be “well organized with good time management skills.” This goes for project management too, “as you’ll have to be clear in your communication and be unafraid to take responsibility.” 

Alternative investments clients: BlackRock, KKR, Blue Owl. Advised Benefit Street Partners, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Franklin Templeton, on numerous broadly syndicated collateralized loan obligation transactions.  

The litigation department is comprised of several subgroups, such as general commercial, white collar, securities, antitrust, Supreme Court and appellate, and bankruptcy – so finding your fit won’t be difficult. As one associate put it, “It’s a generalist practice as a junior, so keeping an open mind is important – you need to be willing to try anything.” Excitingly, the aforementioned Supreme Court and appellate practice recently launched in 2025, and one insider described it as “just getting off the ground!”  

“The flexibility is big, and you have to be intellectually curious to get those opportunities.” 

Interviewees shared what drove them to choose litigation, and surprisingly, it wasn’t the workload: “It was all about the people,” we heard, “The subject matter can vary significantly, but the one I enjoyed the most was the one where I liked the people the best.” Speaking of the workload, typical tasks for junior litigators look like legal research, discovery, and eventually, getting to take the first crack at drafting. There is also potential for an international aspect to the group, as one insider detailed: “I’ve had to research all kinds of law outside of the US – the flexibility is big, and you have to be intellectually curious to get those opportunities.” 

Litigation clients: Ambac Financial Group, Rabobank, Lincoln National Corporation. Represents Susquehanna International Group and various affiliated entities in pending litigation in Pennsylvania state court concerning certain defendants’ investments in ByteDance (TikTok’s parent company). 

Milbank’s global projects, energy, and infrastructure finance practice delivers financing solutions for some of the world’s largest energy and infrastructure developments. This group represents lenders, investors, and sponsors in financing and developing large-scale projects, including debt financing construction, acquisitions, and digital infrastructure. Associates also advise on renewable energy initiatives across the country, primarily handling solar farms, wind farms, and battery storage facilities. One associate explained: “In finance practices, a lot of paper moves for each deal to close – more paper than on other transactional deals – so making sure everything is being tracked and accurately recorded each week is super important.” Within this practice, the work is diverse; insiders mentioned their involvement in structuring debt for major infrastructure projects and advising on renewable energy transactions, offering exposure to multiple facets of project finance. Interviewees discussed how “it’s a very client-facing sector,” explaining that “you interact a lot directly with clients through work or via social events; you’re included very early on, so being open to being social is definitely important.”  

Energy, projects, and infrastructure clients: CleanCapital, Mizuho, MUFG Bank. Represented LS Power, as a seller, in the sale of a portfolio of natural gas generation facilities and power plant platforms in a cash-and-stock deal worth $12 billion.  

Career Development  

Sources at Milbank were united in their views on their development at the firm. “Since I’ve been at Milbank, I haven’t felt like just a number in the masses,” one newbie shared, “People have really cared about my career from day one.” Juniors described the core formal training programs and mentorship opportunities offered at the firm, such as Advocacy@Milbank for litigators and Deals@Milbank for transactional associates. The rotational program was also a huge plus for our insiders: “Even if you think you already know what you want to do, it’s a good way to get a mixed learning approach before joining your specific group.” Fourth years also get the opportunity to join Milbank@Harvard, a week-long professional development program at Harvard University taking place each year over three consecutive years.  

“Since I’ve been at Milbank, I haven’t felt like just a number in the masses.” 

While the firm’s formal training got its flowers, it was the informal, hands-on training that took the cake for rookies: “I get the impression at other firms that there’s pressure for juniors to be correct and fast,” contemplated an interviewee, “but here, there’s leeway, understanding, and opportunities to ask questions and take leaps – all helping personal growth.” Newbies are given a mentor to help them navigate associate life at the firm, and we heard that this mentorship “is definitely the most impactful. You’re generally paired with a second year, so they can relate to you and give you the most applicable advice.” Those who lateraled into the firm expressed how easy it was to find work and integrate with their team: “I easily hit the ground running,” a lateral nodded, “As long as you’re nice, intellectually curious, and you put in the effort, you will thrive.” A similar sentiment was conveyed about partnership, which all our interviewees considered to be attainable.  

Hours & Compensation 

Billable hours: no requirement 

Milbank has no formal billable hour requirement, but productivity is tracked as a percentage. Reviews about this system were mixed; while some praised it for promoting a flexible and stress-free environment, others caveated that “for some associates, it means ‘I will bill as much as I can take,’ and for others, it means ‘I will bill as little as I can.’” Quick word of wisdom: try to take the attitude of the former associate, not the latter!  

Associates at Milbank were well-aware of the firm’s reputation for long hours, with one shrugging, “I knew what I was signing up for,” and another admitting that “we work around the clock.” 

While most associates expected the time commitment when joining the firm, some wished they had a tad more free time: “I was expecting a harsh work week, but I wasn’t expecting that there’s truly no time outside of the office where you’re not meant to be readily available to answer an email or phone call… that part I was shocked by,” an interviewee shared candidly, but the general sentiment was that rookies quickly become accustomed to this part of the BigLaw expectations. It’s no surprise that hours can be intense, with some reporting 90-hour weeks (!) during especially busy periods, though the average junior was working an eight-hour day. The firm’s compensation structure follows the Cravath scale, but juniors quipped that since Milbank has “historically led the market in pay increases, it should be renamed the Milbank scale!” 

Milbank is recognized as a Strong Performer for Benefits & Quality of Life in our 2026 associate satisfaction survey.

Pro Bono  

Juniors are encouraged to do as much pro bono work as they can – within reason, of course. There is a minimum requirement for all attorneys to complete 25 hours of pro bono a year, and as one put it, “the good news is we have a floor, not a ceiling.” There are two head coordinators on the pro bono team, and associates can get work by emailing to inform them of their availability and interests, or partners working on a specific case can contact juniors directly asking for assistance. There is a range of opportunities available, including animal rights, name changes, LGBTQIA+ cases, domestic violence, veterans’ rights, housing, and immigration.  

Pro bono hours  

• For all US attorneys: 38,586 
• Average per US attorney: 54

Milbank is recognized as a Strong Performer for Pro Bono in our 2026 associate satisfaction survey.

Culture  

“It’s a high octane, but good environment,” said one insider. Sources described all attorneys of all seniorities as “kind, friendly, and willing to answer any questions.” As one interviewee shared, “the personal interactions I’ve had with senior colleagues are mostly non-hierarchical, but whenever there is a hierarchy, it is to our benefit.” Another added: “The people here make time to talk to you, and they were honest about their experience. Every job has its hardships, but everyone here is authentic and true while staying positive.” There is no expectation at Milbank to come in and already “be a superstar in any category to thrive here,” we heard, “You just need to be prepared to learn the ropes quickly.” While the firm has an open-door policy and juniors often find themselves chatting with their colleagues in the hallways, those conversations don’t always leave the workplace: “I don’t think people spend a lot of time with each other outside of work,” one candid attorney contemplated, “That’s just not us!”  

“Milbank is probably the best office in New York.” 

“Milbank is probably the best office in New York,” boasted a New Yorker, highlighting the benefits that are offered in Hudson Yards, including (but not limited to!) free breakfast on weekdays, an office barrister, an in-office restaurant, and a terrace. 

Milbank is recognized as a Strong Performer for Culture in our 2026 associate satisfaction survey.

Get Hired    

The first stage: recruitment on and off campus 

OCI applicants interviewed: undisclosed   

Interviewees outside OCI: undisclosed    

Milbank interviews students at over 30 law schools each year. It generally interviews students who apply directly through its website, although it still participates in several traditional OCI programs. Roughly three out of four of the summer associate class are recruited from the top 20 law schools. Nearly 60% of the summer class of 2024 consists of students from the top fifteen law schools. 

Most screen interviews are conducted by hiring partners. Milbank’s recruiters don’t “expect students to know everything” at the interview stage, but we heard that “those who have a compelling basis for choosing to interview with Milbank always impress.”    

Top tips for this stage:     

“Everyone is very curious. A classic Milbank person is someone who’s really smart, someone that has a life and a personality that brings something different to the table. Crack a joke or tell a story – no one hides in the dark here. We’re a very welcoming and warm community.” – a junior associate.    

“The key ingredients for success at Milbank are intellectual curiosity, enthusiasm for the practice of law, a strong work ethic, and a devotion to teamwork and collaboration. Show us that you bring these traits to the table and you will impress.”– partner Alex Lees   

"Collaboration and collegiality are key ingredients in Milbank’s culture so interviews are meant to be conversational and about learning who candidates are as individuals." – partner Sean Solis   

Callbacks 

Applicants invited to second stage interview: undisclosed   

Students typically interview with two associates and two partners, and then can opt for a lunch or coffee with junior associates. The firm also offers the option of evening interviews, which are followed by a casual cocktail reception. A junior associate involved in this process told us: “We take callback interviewees out to lunch after their formal interview for another informal interview – to make sure they’re normal people! We’re given a list of criteria that the firm’s looking for: do they work well in teams? Are they intellectually curious? Do they strike us as the kind of person we want to work with?”      

Top tips for this stage:     

“You can never look at someone’s resume and say, ‘that’s a Milbank person’, but you can tell pretty quickly within five minutes of being in a lunch with them whether they fit. They’re smart but at the same time don’t take themselves too seriously. They’re interesting and have interests outside of what they’re working on a daily basis.”– a junior associate.     

"We look for candidates who show us that they are enthusiastic about practicing law, engaging with legal issues and ideas, and taking on new challenges. Show us that you are a self-starter and an eager learner, motivated to engage in the complex problem-solving that characterizes our practice." – partner Sean Solis   

"Consider how your personal and professional experiences have gotten you to this moment in time, and how those experiences make you the right fit for Milbank." – partner Alex Lees   

Summer program     

Offers: undisclosed   

Acceptances: 81

Milbank's summer program allows students to rotate through three of the firm's practice areas.  Work is assigned by practice group assignment coordinators and each summer associate receives a partner mentor and an associate mentor.  Summer associates receive real-time feedback on their work in addition to mid-summer and end-of-summer meetings with a hiring partner to discuss feedback and their development for the future.    

Summer associates participate in formal training programs throughout the summer program. The first program examines a hypothetical company and each session includes an exploration of a key legal step from inception to bankruptcy and then restructuring, including work on assignments ranging from commitment letters to an IP prospectus. Each session is taught by partners and associates who are experts in the subject matter. Other training programs consist of practice group spotlight sessions with the various practice groups at the firm, as well as other external speakers brought in on a variety of pertinent topics. 

Nearly 100% of summer associates return as junior associates.  When they return, they are assigned to the ‘transactional rotation program’ or to litigation, restructuring, tax, or trusts & estates.  Associates in the transactional rotation move through two corporate and finance practices over the first 9 months of their first year at the firm.      

Top tips for this stage:     

“There’s an emphasis on trying to find the types of people that’d fit into the culture: friendly, and easy to get along with. Those people who you’d want to spend the hours with when the hours are long.”– a junior associate.     

"The summer program offers you an opportunity to not only get to know the firm but also figure out what kind of lawyer you’d like to be. It’s an opportunity to ask questions, attend training sessions, explore various practice areas and network with lawyers across the firm." – partner Alex Lees   

"The summer associate experience will help teach you about the practical side of being a lawyer following the rigors and intellectual side of the law you learn in law school. But the program also is a lot of fun, chock full of events intended to promote the cohesion of the summer class and give summer associates a memorable experience." – partner Sean Solis   

And finally….     

“One thing I’ve noticed is that Milbankers are generally pretty funny. When they get us all into a room, I’m surprised at how easy it is for everyone to make each other laugh.”– a junior associate.

Interview with Alex Lees, litigation & arbitration practice group leader and co-chair of the firm's hiring committee

Commercial strategy, market position and trends

Chambers Associate: How would you define your firm’s current position and identity in the legal market? What differentiates your firm from your peer firms in the market?

Alex Lees: We are very much in a phase of growth. We have had year after year of expansion in terms of revenues and profitability, as well as growth in the partnership. We've added significant strength in various areas, and we also continue to achieve excellence in areas where we were already very strong. Just to highlight some of the recent growth, we added a Supreme Court and Appellate practice about a year ago, and we now have a world-class, top-ranked appellate practice. We just recently argued the tariffs case and won it. I mean, that's about as high profile as it gets. That's on the litigation side. On the transactional side, we've seen tremendous growth in digital infrastructure and related things like infrastructure M&A.

Just to hit a couple of other highlights, we continue to have a top-notch, market-leading CLO practice in structured finance. I think we have something like a quarter of the CLO market in the US and a third of the market in Europe. And then just more generally, within the past couple of years, we moved and upgraded our London office and our Washington DC office. We are also in the process of moving and upgrading offices in Los Angeles and Munich. All of this is a reflection of an upward trajectory.

CA: Are there any domestic or international events/trendsthat are affecting any of the firm’s practices at the moment?

Lees: A big one is the AI boom. That's just a major driver of growth in the economy generally at the moment. We've always had a market-leading project finance and infrastructure practice and there had been data center work previously, but that positioned us really well to capture that market when it really took off with the explosion of demand for AI in the past two and a half to three years or so. That, I would say, is a major economic shift that we have really been able to capitalize on because we were so well positioned given our project finance practice.

CA: What is your firm’s commercial strategy focusing on, and how do you expect the next year to unfold?

Lees: Our commercial strategy is always the same: It is that we need to continue to achieve substantive excellence and grow the firm in that regard and add talent strategically and opportunistically. Size is important. Scale is important, and it opens up opportunities that don't exist when you're smaller. But we are not going to grow just for the sake of it. We are very choosy about whom we invite into our practice because we need to maintain substantive excellence and we take very seriously the idea that we need people to come into our practice who are going to fit within our workplace and have the values we have.

If I'm thinking about areas where we really like to grow, I think we'd like to have a bigger footprint on the litigation side and in intellectual property. I think we'd also like to continue to focus on expanding our M&A practice and particularly on getting a bigger footprint in public M&A. This is all caveated by saying, if there is a great opportunity to bring in any top-notch practice, we'll take it. We're going to continue to do what we're doing, and it's not just the lateral market. We had something like 18 laterals in 2025, but we also had 17 internal promotions in the same year. So, we're also continuing to make partners from within our ranks when they achieve substantive excellence and we think that they should join the partnership and continue our model.

I think we're also going to continue to attract the top talent at the associate level. That is a big part of our strategy. We're also going to continue to be the pay leader. Since 2018, we have been the firm that has moved first on salaries for associates; we announce special bonuses, and we are more often than not the first mover on special bonuses. People no longer call it the Cravath pay scale, they call it the Milbank pay scale, and that's important to us because we want our associates to know that they are valued and we want recruits to know that they will be valued when they come here. We are only as good as our people, and we want to attract the best people.

CA: What qualities or experiences does the firm prioritize when assessing junior associate candidates? What qualities would you say grab your attention?

Lees: Our guiding star is always substantive excellence. Now things have changed recently in the recruiting market. Whereas maybe five years ago, as had been true for decades, the recruiting season took place in August and September, 2026 marks the first time that law school recruiting predominantly took place in January and February and a little bit into March. So that's new. And that changes what you look for, because now you have less information about people, as they've only completed a single semester of law school.

That said, the overall approach doesn't change. If substantive excellence is your guiding star, which it is for us, we are going to be focused on grades. But we're very proud of this thing we have at Milbank that we enjoy practicing law with one another. And so, we're selective about the people we accept. We want people to come in and add to that sense that we are in this together, that we are working as a team, that there is no room for egotistical behavior and there's certainly no room for treating teammates badly. So, we select very carefully for those things. We want to see a work ethic. To some extent that is reflected in grades, and there are going to be plenty of K through JD candidates; I was one of them myself. But when we see people who also have life experiences and work experiences, maybe between college and law school or at other points in life, that demonstrate a real perseverance and a willingness to accept and confront challenges, that matters to us too.

CA: What are your top tips for students who want to stand out in your application process? Is there anything they consistently overlook that they should be doing?

Lees: I think in addition to academic success, which is kind of the baseline, people should have a good understanding of what they're getting into. That doesn't mean that you have to be an expert in finance, it doesn't mean that you have to have mastered doctrine. I’m talking about understanding what lawyers do at law firms, understanding what is expected of young lawyers, and understanding that you are getting into a work environment, especially one where you're going to be focusing on commercial issues. That can help, even if you don't have deep knowledge of those things. I get a lot of candidates who say, “I love the idea of international law.” I'm not really sure international law is a thing; I think what people mean is they want to work on cross-border cases and transactions. That's different. I get a lot of people who come in and say, “I've got a practice group preference for X,” and that's not one of our practice areas. That reflects a naivete about what we're doing.

Also, and I would say that this is actually more important, people should know that substantive excellence is what we are looking for. In Milbank interviews, at least not all of them, we're not just going to ask you about your pet and your favorite meal and where you like to travel. I like to have substantive discussions with people, not tests. I don't test them on their legal knowledge, but I ask them, tell me about a legal issue that interests you, and then I talk about it with them. Because what I want to know is, can you carry on a conversation? Can you address complex ideas? Can you have a debate and think about them on your feet? And are you enthusiastic about it? And the reason I do that, and others do it too, is because that's what our job is like day in and day out. First-year lawyers should be expected to cope with that and so should summer associates. So, another thing we look for is your presence. Wallflowers tend not to succeed for very long in large law firms, or at least not in Milbank, because we expect our lawyers to be active participants in the discussion of our cases and our matters. We know that expertise comes over time, but the enthusiasm to engage, the willingness to learn and to discuss ideas, and to be able to take complex issues and translate them: those are things that you should come prepared to exercise from day one and in the interview.

Inside the Firm

CA: How is the firm evolving to accommodate the needs/expectations of the next generation of lawyers?

Lees: Well, that certainly triggers a thought about artificial intelligence. We are all expected at Milbank to be adapting to the new tools that are available to us. I strongly suspect that over the next five years or so associates will start to differentiate themselves based on their mastery of the available artificial intelligence tools. Some will learn it and learn how to use it and will find use cases for it that others haven't found, and they will turn into more productive and efficient workers. I do think that people who are reluctant to master new technology will fall behind. So that is one area where I think the next generation is going to experience things differently than I did when I was starting.

One way we differentiate ourselves is how do we prepare our lawyers in terms of training and mentorship, and I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention our Milbank@Harvard program, which is unique and totally cool. We invite our associates starting in their fourth year to Milbank for a week-long session at a time; they do it three times over the course of three years, and they learn from the greatest professors in law and business and take these amazingly cool classes and programs. It can range from nuts-and-bolts knowledge, such as how to read a balance sheet or how to value a business, to softer things, such as how to manage a team and understanding game theory mechanics. All of those things will just make them better lawyers.

Also, I think maybe the highest value of Milbank@Harvard is that it's an opportunity for our lawyers from every practice group from all over the world to come together and meet each other. That's essential. What good is a law firm if you don't know what your colleagues are doing or how they operate? And what missed opportunities there would be if, for example, someone in the project finance department got a question from a client that actually had to do with securities issues, and that person said, “well, you're going to have to consult a securities lawyer, go find another law firm” instead of picking up the phone and saying “I met Joanna at Milbank@Harvard, I bet she could help me answer this question.” And Milbank@Harvard allows people to make those connections. It can make a bigger firm feel smaller because you are put into this very close-knit, intimate environment for a week at a time with people whose paths you might not otherwise cross.

There are all sorts of other training and mentorship we do, formal and informal. We have Advocacy@Milbank, a structured program on both substance and technical skills for litigators. We have Deals@Milbank, for substantive and technical skills for transactional lawyers. That spans the whole associate lifespan. We are very, very dedicated to the training and mentorship and development of our people. 

The Fun BitCA: What's your go-to easy meal to have before you crash?

Lees: I'm going to give you two answers. If I just need some comfort junk food and I'm eating alone in front of the TV, zoning out, then I'm going to go to Bareburger. I'm a pescatarian, so I'm going to get an impossible burger, but I'm going to eat a burger and fries. But I'm an extrovert and one thing I really like to do is take my colleagues out to dinner, especially if we are coming down off a major adrenaline rush. Our appellate team just won an award two nights ago. We took the award, we left the ceremony, we went out to Marea, and we celebrated.

CA: What was the first concert you attended?

Lees: When I was eight years old, my uncle and my dad took me to Toad's Place in New Haven to see Weird Al Yankovic, who to my little eight-year-old brain was hilarious.

CA: Thinking about the ways in which the legal profession is developing, what is the one skill you have learnt in your career that you think is key for young attorneys to learn?

Lees: It's impossible to be a solo practitioner, at least in a law firm setting, and doing the cases that we do. You need to know whom to call. You need to know how you divvy up a complex task among a team. You need to know how they work, how they best take instruction and guidance or not, and how you can let them flourish. Then you also need to know about the resources at the firm. What is something that's appropriate for a paralegal to do? When can I ask the research team at the library to assist? You need to know what the resources are within the team, how can you do knowledge management and levy the expertise of a whole bunch of people in order to get the best result. That's essential.