Pillsbury - The Inside View

“I joined Pillsbury because I was ready to be a city girl!” an eager source exclaimed – not a Doughboy (which is also coincidentally the name of the firm’s band, though we’d forgive your confusion). While BigLaw doesn’t carry the reputation of being a cakewalk by any means, we heard that Pillsbury is an exception to the rule with a “high quality of work and work ethic,” and people who “appreciate the experience and skillset that you bring.” Aside from the firm’s decorated legal services, it was Pillsbury’s reputation amongst its lawyers that sweetened the deal for associates: “The attorneys were the first people I spoke to who genuinely seemed to love their firm and their job.” Another agreed that “Pillsbury was one of the only places where people liked the attorneys they worked for.” And the people are just the cherry on top, as one source told us: “It felt like I was wanted, and Pillsbury was invested in my growth.”

“It felt like I was wanted, and Pillsbury was invested in my growth.”

DC-based Pillsbury has its fingers in quite a few pies across the US, including New York, where most of our juniors were found, Austin, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, Nashville, and San Francisco. The firm’s bread and butter is state-dependent, with corporate, construction, and tax in their California offices; white collar crime and government investigations in New York; IP in Virginia; and technology in DC being the best thing since sliced sourdough.

That said, Pillsbury is known nationwide (and in both Chambers USA and Chambers Global) for achievements in the regulatory sector – specifically nuclear energy, alcohol, and aviation – as well as energy, life sciences and digital health, outsourcing, real estate and construction, finance, and media and telecom. But the true recipe for success at Pillsbury has been curating an individualized experience for its lawyers from the outset. What this means for our associates is that they can have their cake and eat it too, as one associate confirmed: “You should go into it intentionally. Pillsbury is a customizable experience, but it’s what you make of it.”

Strategy & Future

“We have been impacted by world events – certainly some geopolitical events that have slowed down cross-border deals,” chairman David Dekker confesses, “Rising interest rates have slowed down corporate transactions, but we have still had a strong financial year.” That aside, Pillsbury has been on the hunt for unique talent, as Dekker continues: “We’ve hired some really interesting and exciting laterals over the past year – for example, Judge Rolando Acosta who was the chief judge of the First Appellate Division in New York. Fundamentally, in terms of opening or closing an office or changing our practice mix, the basic answer is that we’re comfortable with our geographic platform and focus, and we’re hoping to grow across our platform.”

Dekker is also cognizant of how the rise of AI might affect Pillsbury, a tech-focused firm in certain regions: “Over the next decade, AI will have a substantial impact on the legal industry – more so than an event like moving from paper to electronic discovery had a big impact on the legal industry.” He goes on to say that, “We are advising a number of clients with respect to generative AI and its implications. It's an area where we're working on leading deals for some of the larger banks, dealing with how they'll transform their technology, including utilizing the cloud and in terms of generative AI."

Read more from David Dekker under the 'Get Hired' tab.

The Work

Most Pillsbury juniors work in the firm’s corporate, litigation or regulatory departments, with the rest scattered throughout real estate, tax, finance, and IP. We were told that as summers, there is an informal rotational system through which budding lawyers can sample different projects based on which practice groups have availability at the time: “They want you to be 100% sure that you like your practice group before joining.” Then, “at the end of the summer, you rank what your practice group preference is. 99% of the time, you get what you want.” After joining the firm fully, the consensus among juniors across offices was that while there is centralized staffing to some degree, the best way to pick up work is to form relationships with partners. Of this, one associate described: “In your home office, there will always be a handful of partners assigned to your group. Then, work starts flowing through them – it really opens up once you get your foundations down.”

In litigation, “we generally do a wide range of work – they don’t pigeon-hole you into a certain practice. I’m exploring, and it’s nice that Pillsbury lets you do that as a junior litigator.” Work includes labor and employment; trade secrets; consumer class actions; IP law; landlord-tenant disputes; unfair competition; international arbitration; and white-collar litigation. Whew! And the client list doesn’t get any shorter, with construction or energy companies, big universities, large banks, and prestigious, household name corporations on the roster. Typically, juniors are tasked with preparing discovering and jobs related to that – “I’ve done my fair share of document review!” This source added: “There are a lot of cases I’ve been with from the start, and I’ve gotten more responsibility as it develops. There are a lot of cases in the deposition stage right now, so I’m helping to prepare the deposition document outline; sometimes I get to attend them too!” Overall, budding litigators were pleased to “have a lot of responsibility and litigation experience early on compared to a lot of other people’s experiences at other firms.”

Litigation clients: Precision Metals, Holtec International. Advising nuclear utilities in recovering damages from the U.S Department of Energy’s breach of its contracts requiring the Department of Energy to dispose of spent nuclear fuel starting in 1988.

“It’s very common as a first year to be the only corporate associate on a transaction – I’ve probably done up to 10 deals in my first year where it’s just been me.”

Corporate practice at Pillsbury is divided into two departments: corporate securities and corporate securities technology. Like litigation, there are a variety of matters for associates to take on – mainly M&A, funds, private equity, venture capital, and emerging business work. And “we have some very cool clients,” one interviewee enthused, “We’ve got a lot in sports and the restaurant and food industries.” Another told us “most of my clients have been startups, as well as technology, gaming, or media companies.” These juniors are also given tons of responsibility from the word ‘go’: “It’s very common as a first year to be the only corporate associate on a transaction – I’ve probably done up to 10 deals in my first year where it’s just been me.” Early on, first year duties often include the easier, day-to-day due diligence and signature packets, but juniors can also be assigned mid-level associate tasks, such as negotiation and drafting.

Corporate clients: CleanChoice Energy, Catalyst Spirits, Larva Labs. Represented The Raine Group, lead financial advisor to the WWE in a deal worth $21+ billion.

Career Development

Insiders were generally satisfied with the career development opportunities at the firm, and we heard that partnership is quite achievable. There are several homegrown partners at the firm who have been helpful in providing feedback, which many of the juniors attributed to the firm’s hiring practices: “Really from day one, you can tell that every hiring decision is made based on the notion that the person may be at the firm for a very long time.” There are formal and informal mentoring programs available with every first year being assigned a mid-level associate or partner mentor, but there are also opportunities for organic development: “They’re realistic about people’s career trajectories. I had a lot of conversations about looking ahead early on, so now I’m really looking at my career development down the line.”

“…from day one, you can tell that every hiring decision is made based on the notion that the person may be at the firm for a very long time.”

Pillsbury puts a lot of faith in its associates as the future of the firm, as one interviewee described: “There is an appreciation that you are an attorney. They have a lot of trust and faith in associates to do well and be relied upon.” This source continued, “Top-level management is focused on growing the firm; they’re not looking to capture as many people as possible and let them go when they don’t provide as much value or get too expensive. They care a lot about ensuring that associates are kept, and that people progress within the firm.”

Hours & Compensation

Billable hours: 1,950 target

We were told by most of the associates we spoke to that their billable hour target – 300 hours of which can be non-client billables – feels achievable. One litigator admitted that “at first, I was a little worried about the target. There are a lot of ebbs and flows in litigation but now that I’m here, I think it’s attainable, and so is getting a bonus!” Speaking of, the bonus structure is lockstep, but Pillsbury is no stranger to doling out discretionary bonuses where attorneys have gone above and beyond their billable target. The first-year bonus tier is around 2,000 hours and after that, “if you continue to bill more than the bonus tier, then the bonus gets bigger. And the following year, the bonuses will only continue to get bigger.”

Average weekly working hours vary between practice and is largely dependent on how busy each department is, but our survey results showed that associates are working an average of 48 hours – right around the market average! Several juniors told us that while they tend to finish around 7pm, they either tend to log back on when they get home or log on at least one weekend a month: “It just requires good time management,” an interviewee advised, “I’ve been able to take breaks, and nobody has given me projects that are same-day turnarounds. But I always check my email, just in case there’s an emergency. Although if I get an email while watching TV or something, then I can wait until my show’s over to respond!”

Culture

“I’ve watched Suits and Partner Track, and we’re not that kind of firm.”

Luckily, you don’t have to be thick-skinned wunderkind Mike Ross to keep up at Pillsbury, as one junior joked, “I’ve watched Suits and Partner Track, and we’re not that kind of firm.” Rather, the culture is “generally lowkey.” Several interviewees made it clear that “people are a lot more personable than expected – the job is demanding, but there’s a lot of actual care towards ensuring that people have the capacity to do their work in order to do it well.” Another associate emphasized this point, highlighting the supportive nature of the firm: “We have an open-door policy. When I want to approach a partner, a senior associate, or counsel, I can just walk into my office, and they’ll almost always answer my questions.”

We heard that people are “collaborative” and “welcoming,” with one regulatory junior stating that “everyone’s very mindful of how busy things can get and mindful of the fact that when there’s a quiet period, you might just want to chill out.” Another confirmed that “people really enjoy getting to learn with other people – it doesn’t seem like people are gatekeeping clients or anything. It’s more of a ‘we work together to succeed together’ attitude, not a horror story with people yelling or being super demanding.” The firm is involved in some wider team building events too, with one source divulging that “there’s a local basketball team and a band called the Doughboys too. They even played with Lynsi Synder, the owner of In-N-Out, as their bassist once for the In-N-Out foundation!”

Diversity, Equity & Inclusion

Chairman David Dekker details the firm’s progress and emphasis on DEI: “We are a firm that very much values DEI – our summer program was more than 80% Mansfield diverse and more than 70% racially diverse.” Associates generally agree that Pillsbury “has resources that have made me feel more comfortable as a person of color,” and this has a lot to do with the numerous committees within the firm. Juniors can partake in the Women’s Lawyer Committee, Attorneys of Color Network, and First-Generation Committee to name a few, which allows for lawyers to connect with others at various levels of seniority to share their experiences.

“…underrepresented groups have been the firm’s focus.”

Interviewees also highlighted the firm’s efforts to recruit from a diverse pool of candidates: “The last two summer classes nationally have been predominantly people of color… underrepresented groups have been the firm’s focus.” This junior also applauded the firm’s “commitment to hiring people from the core Historically Black Colleges and Universities. In DC, it’s not too diverse, but the trend is that Pillsbury wants to ensure there’s more diverse hiring.” That said, some associates indicated that the firm could do more for employee retention, with 56% of survey respondents believing that the firm makes an effort to retain diverse talent. One source confessed that “a lot of us don’t get work because we don’t have the relationships with the partners – we’re being under-utilized. It’s not a malicious thing, it’s more of a systemic problem.” That said, insiders across offices told us that there are people at a senior level who they can speak to for support and that over time, they hope to see a systemic shift in attitudes within the firm.

Pro Bono

Pillsbury encourages its associates to do at least 25 hours of pro bono annually, 200 of which can count towards the billable target – “the averages are well above that though.” One insider attributed this to “the firm’s policy that if there’s something you want to do that the pro bono committee hasn’t already suggested, then you can bring that on as a new matter.” With regular email blasts that circulate pro bono opportunities, the consensus was that associates are very comfortable taking on pro bono. Even though it is generally “not acceptable to move billable work for pro bono,” there is “still a culture of wanting to do it. Pillsbury doesn’t see pro bono as less important. If you have some interest and care for it, they want you to be part of the team.” DC associates can get involved with the Innocence Project and the Washington Lawyers Committee, as one source told us that “the firm does a lot of progressive advocacy – they try to keep it moderate politically, but they really do care about social justice and make that really clear.” This interviewee also informed us that since 2020, Pillsbury “has offered pro bono services to Black-owned startups int the hope that these companies will end up taking off and use Pillsbury for future legal services. They have a strong investment in doing what they can to promote racial equity.”

Pro bono hours:

• For all (US) attorneys: 37,323
• Average per (US) attorney: 60

Get Hired

The first stage: recruitment on and off campus  

OCI applicants interviewed: undisclosed  

Pillsbury conducts OCIs at 25 law schools, which are mostly ranked in the top 20. Mariah Brandt, Chair of On-Campus Recruiting, explained: “To keep our recruiting as diverse as possible, we attend particular career fairs like the Lavender Law Fair for LGBT students and the Black Law Student Association (BLSA) law fair.” Pillsbury also attends a few speciality fairs, like the IP law fair at Loyola in Chicago, plus the occasional resume drop at a particular school.  

A mix of partners and associates are involved in the process: “We have recruiting committees in each office, and generally attorneys from those committees are the ones who go on campus to conduct interviews for the firm.”  

The firm styles the interview in a conversational way, “so that we get to know the candidate.” This means there aren’t any set questions, but the interviewers typically ask candidates competency-based questions: “For example, we would to look at a candidate’s resume and ask questions about an activity or a job they listed to determine if the candidate has exhibited leadership skills, entrepreneurial spirit, and the ability to take initiative,” says Brandt.  

Top tips for this stage: “First, be yourself. It always comes across better to be your genuine self rather than trying to be who you think an interviewer wants you to be. Second, be prepared. Have examples ready to share of your past experiences that demonstrate you take initiative, are a leader, can accomplish goals you set or overcome challenges. Third, show you are interested in Pillsbury. Know about the firm and show you are interested in working there in particular as opposed to just wanting any job” – Mariah Brandt 

Callbacks  

The callback process varies by office, but usually the candidate will meet with three to five partners or associates for half-hour interviews. The questions here tend to be similar to the OCI questions, meaning more competency-revealing conversations. Some callbacks also include lunch or coffee with attorneys.  

Brandt pointed out: “If a candidate gets to the callback stage, the firm has determined that their resume meets our criteria and the attorney who interviewed them on campus thought they would be a good fit for the firm.”  

Top tips for this stage: “A callback is the opportunity for the candidate to meet with other attorneys to give them a feel for who the candidate is and whether they would fit in and succeed at Pillsbury” – Mariah Brandt 

Summer program  

Acceptances: 50 (10 1Ls and 40 2Ls) 

Each office runs the summer program slightly differently, but all offices ensure that summers are getting exposure to different practice areas and have an appropriate amount of assignments: “Every year we tailor the number of summers in our summer classes so that there is room for and the expectation that each summer can get an offer.” Most summers return as junior associates: “Offers to join Pillsbury are not specific as to any particular practice area, but we make every effort to assign junior attorneys to the practice section of their choice."  

Top tips for this stage: “Try to get as broad an exposure over the summer as possible. This is the time to get to know your future colleagues, as well as figure out who they work with best and what practice areas they would like to work in” – Mariah Brandt  

And finally… 

“So much of applying to BigLaw is making sure you find a firm that, when you’re stuck working late nights, are the people you’re working with making it better?” – second-year associate 

Interview with David Dekker, firm chair

Commercial strategy, market position and trends

Chambers Associate: How would you define your firm’s current position and identity in the legal market? What differentiates your firm from your peer firms in the market?

David Dekker: We are a firm that represents elite clients in leading financial and legal markets. We have a diverse set of practices… in terms of what differentiates us, there’s a couple of things. One example is that within the corporate area, we represent traditional, large companies in M&A and IPOs and so on, but we also have an ECVC practice with a particular focus on emerging companies. Our catchphrase is that we’re where “blue-chip meets microchips” – there are a number of firms focused on emerging growth, and there are a number of firms focused on blue-chip clients. We’re a little unusual in that we have a robust blue-chip practice and a robust emerging growth practice.

We have maintained a wide range of strong practices, in the transactional, disputes and regulatory areas. We’ve not chosen to narrow our focus to just a small number of specialties – instead, we’ve made a decision that we’ll remain a multi-practice firm.

CA: Have there been any developments at the firm over the past year that you’d like law students to know about?

Dekker: We have not done anything significant in terms of opening or closing offices.  Many of our practices are evolving with the time, and we add specialties.  We have been impacted by world events – certainly some of the geo-political events that have slowed down cross-border deals, as well as rising interest rates have slowed down corporate transactions, but we have still had a strong financial year. We will still show an increase in profitability year over year. So, while we have to deal with those issues, we haven’t sought to change our strategic goals or focus. We’ve hired some really interesting and exciting laterals over the past year – for example, Judge Rolando Acosta who was the chief judge of the First Appellate Division in New York. Fundamentally, in terms of opening or closing an office or changing our practice mix, the basic answer is that we’re comfortable with our geographic platform and focus, and we’re hoping to grow across our platform.

We continue to build around mega trends, such as climate change and the energy transition, biotech and life sciences and the digitization of the world economy.

CA: Are there any domestic or international events/trends [legal, economic, political, social] that are affecting any of the firm’s practices at the moment? Are there any trends that you think are affecting the business of law firms more generally, and how is that playing out with your firm?

Dekker: Certainly generative AI is likely to substantially change our industry, although to this point, it hasn’t created any radical changes.  We are advising a number of clients with respect to generative AI and its implications. It’s an area where we’re working on leading deals for some of the larger banks, dealing with how they’ll transform their technology, including utilizing the cloud and in terms of generative AI. Over the next decade, AI will have a substantial impact on the legal industry – more so than an event like moving from paper to electronic discovery had a big impact on the legal industry. We have something called ‘The Sandbox’, where lawyers across our firm are given latitude to experiment with generative AI products to look at their effectiveness, as well as considering the ethical and legal boundaries. We have not yet seen its true impact on the services that large law firms provide to clients. It will replace a number of tasks done by lawyers, particularly those done relatively early in one’s career. Law firms like Pillsbury are studying this very closely, trying to determine how we best use it and make it viable for our clients and our people. How will we train our people, especially new lawyers.  I don’t think any of us have an answer yet, but over the coming years it’ll change the practice of law in a very substantial way.

Because of geo-political problems around the world, we have seen some reversal in the globalization of the world economy and that has an impact on law firms like Pillsbury. While we don’t have a large number of lawyers in overseas offices, we do have a substantial amount of cross-border work. I think geo-political events are causing the world to become a bit more insular and divided, and that has the potential to decrease the flow of cross-border work. We’ll see where that goes, but that’s a trend that has the potential to impact our firm and other firms looking to compete in legal markets not only in the US, but in Asia, Europe, Africa and Latin America.  It’s already having an impact, and if geo-political events get worse, then the impact could become far more substantial.

CA: What is your firm’s commercial strategy focusing on, and how do you expect the next year to unfold?

Dekker: Our firm has always had an industry focus as well as practice focuses [corporate, litigation, IP, regulatory]. We focus on particular industries and subsets of those industries where we’re strong, and focus on trends that we see in those industries. For example, one of our areas of industry focus is energy, with a particular focus on decarbonization and the energy transition. We do some traditional fossil-fuels-related work, but most of it has to do with the energy transition. I see that continuing to be the case going forward; we’re looking to grow our ability to compete in the energy transition arena.

“In the technology sector, we’re also focusing on some broader world trends – like health tech, defense tech and biotech. There is a lot of work in these areas across the world. These are areas that have been important to us and we’re looking to increase the depth and the breadth of the services that we offer to clients. More generally, there’s an old saying that every company is a tech company: we think that every company has tech needs, and the generative AI revolution is only going to increase that. We’re focused on the firm’s ability to assist clients with their technology transactions and with the transition to a more tech-focused practice. In these and other respects we’re looking at mega trends to see how they’ll impact the world economy and trying to stay in front of them.

CA: How do you think Pillsbury’s nationwide reach (Texas, California, New York, etc.) broadens the scope of opportunities available to the firm?

Dekker: Our US geographic strategy has been the two coasts plus Texas. And that’s not to diminish the importance of markets in the middle of the country – nobody could dispute the importance of markets in Chicago, Denver, Atlanta and elsewhere. If you look at our industry focus, our geographic focus is consistent – the anchors of the firm were originally New York, Washington D.C., Los Angeles, San Fransisco – but we’ve expanded. Think about tech – we’ve added offices in Silicon Valley, which is obviously very important in tech. San Diego: important to biotech. Houston: growing importance to ECVC, especially energy tech and health tech. The geography supports a tech practice. With respect to energy, Texas remains an important part of any energy-focused practice, including practices more focused on the energy transition, as are New York and D.C. and the West Coast. For the present time our industry and practice focus, and geographical strategy remain the same. If you look at California and Texas, they’re two of the largest economies in the world on a standalone basis, two true economic engines, not only for this country but for the world. We think this strategy is good for us, and we want to grow our existing offices in those locations.

Inside the Firm

CA: How is the firm evolving to accommodate the needs/expectations of the next generation of lawyers?

Dekker: In a number of ways, we have a flexible, hybrid working policy – we’re asking people to come to the office three days a week, but giving flexibility on what those days are. We provide different teams of lawyers flexibility to decide what schedules work for them. We have an environment where individuals can pursue interests and causes that they care about – we give them leeway to structure their own careers and practices, including if they want to get involved in pro bono or social justice issues. We have a robust mental health program that has won a number of awards in terms of its comprehensiveness.

We are also less top-down managed than some firms. There are firms that are far more inflexible – we’re a firm that gives a lot more leeway in developing a career, especially for those with an entrepreneurial spirit.

We are a firm that very much values DE&I – our summer program was more than 80% Mansfield diverse and more than 70% racially diverse. More than 50% of our senior leadership positions are filled by Mansfield diverse attorneys. In the sense of a place where there are advancement opportunities available for everyone, we provide that sort of platform. I know that every firm says this and it’s hard to judge, but we have a great culture, including many ‘lifers’. People like each other, within an open and transparent culture. We’re more open and transparent with our associates than some firms are with their partners. We are fully transparent with our partners.  I’ve been with several different firms, and can fairly say that we have a very supportive culture that creates a strong work environment.

The Fun Bit

CA: Is there any advice you’d give to your younger self starting out your career?

Dekker: I don’t have any regrets about my career. What I would say to someone just starting out is that I continue to believe that law is a challenging and rewarding career. We are in a period where the nature of the practice is evolving for a number of reasons, so being flexible will be critical. I would recommend trying a number of different things to see what you like and where the practice area seems to be going – there are some practices that I don’t think will be viable practices ten years down the line. I encourage people to think about where the world is going - speak to people who have been practicing for a longer period of time to help determine what practice areas will be in demand and vibrant that are likely to interest you.  That can vary from person to person, and what’s been hot in the last decade isn’t necessarily going to be a hot practice area in the next decade. I’d encourage young lawyers to use a crystal ball to the extent they can, and speak to people in the industry about its future.

CA: The hours in BigLaw can be punishing. How do you unwind at the end of a long day/week?

Dekker: I have always been very much into sports and physical activity. For most of my career, I either bicycled or otherwise engaged in alternative commuting to work – I used to rollerblade or run to work! For me personally, sports, athletics, and exercise are really important in terms of stress reduction.

I also consider myself to be a social person – whether that’s getting out and tasting new food and wine, or going to concerts – or really, any kind of social activity with friends. I also very much enjoy travel, and have had a wide range of travel experiences. I sometimes try to tack a day or two on either side of a work trip where I can, especially if it’s an international trip.